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[Ed NY]

Rich,

 I won't be able to post for a week or so. I am busy. God bless.

Ed

[Marie63]

Yes, I would consider that relativism.  It basically says there is no ultimate, absolute truth because how can people with wildly varying ideas of God all understand Him completely?  How can God be personal and non-personal at the same time?  How can He be separate from creation and part of it at the same time?  How can He be only one Person (as Jews and Muslims believe) and Three Persons (as Christians believe) at the same time?  These different ideas of God are contradictory...so how can they all be true at the same time and exhibit a "complete" understanding of Him?

Romans 1 and 2 tell us that God reveals Himself through creation and through the natural law written on the human heart, but this is only partial revelation, yet it is enough for someone to be saved if that's all the revelation of God they have.  But human nature being what it is, this revelation gets corrupted (Rom 1:21 & 22) and that's why we have all these wrong beliefs about God.  That's why the Church speaks of other religions having "elements of truth" but not having all the truth.  The fullness of truth is found in Jesus Christ, in His Church.

[Ed NY]

God leads wherever God wants to lead.

There is the Ordaining Will of God and there is also the Permissive Will of God.

Ed

[Ed NY]

It seems that if we reject the existence of the Permissive Will of God, i.e., everything happens according only to the Ordaining Will of God, human initiative becomes irrelevant in all areas of human existence.

[Ed NY]

The Vatican II document, Sacrosanctum Concilium, The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, can be found in the following URL:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

The 130-article Vatican II document says in part:

" 5. God who 'wills that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth' (1 Tim. 2:4), 'who in many and various ways spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets' (Heb. 1:1), when the fullness of time had come sent His Son, the Word made flesh, anointed by the Holy Spirit, to preach the the gospel to the poor, to heal the contrite of heart, to be a 'bodily and spiritual medicine', the Mediator between God and man. For His humanity, united with the person of the Word, was the instrument of our salvation. Therefore in Christ 'the perfect achievement of our reconciliation came forth, and the fullness of divine worship was given to us' ... ".

" 6. Just as Christ was sent by the Father, so also He sent the apostles, filled with the Holy Spirit. This He did that, by preaching the gospel to every creature, they might proclaim that the Son of God, by His death and resurrection, had freed us from the power of Satan and from death, and brought us into the kingdom of His Father ...".

" 9. The sacred liturgy does not exhaust the entire activity of the Church. Before men can come to the liturgy they must be called to faith and to conversion: 'How then are they to call upon him in whom they have not yet believed? But how are they to believe him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear if no one preaches? And how are men to preach unless they be sent?' (Rom. 10:14-15) ... Therefore the Church announces the good tidings of salvation to those who do not believe, so that all men may know the true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent, and may be converted from their ways, doing penance. To believers also the Church must ever preach faith and penance, she must prepare them for the sacraments, teach them to observe all that Christ has commanded, and invite them to all the works of charity, piety, and the apostolate. For all these works make it clear that Christ's faithful, though not of this world, are to be the light of the world and to glorify the Father before men..."

"12. The spiritual life, however, is not limited solely to participation in the liturgy. The Christian is indeed called to pray with his brethren, but he must also enter into his chamber to pray to the Father, in secret; yet more, according to the teaching of the Apostle, he should pray without ceasing. We learn from the same Apostle that we must always bear about in our body the dying of Jesus, so that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our bodily frame. This is why we ask the Lord in the sacrifice of the Mass that, 'receiving the offering of the spiritual victim', he may fashion us for himself 'as an eternal gift' ..."

[rick MD]

It seems to me that you are being relativistic. When you use the word “truth”, if you are a Catholic that means, in a nutshell, the Nicean Creed; for us Catholics that is the truth, there is no other truth. Can there be other “truths”? Sure, if you are a scientists, or a politician, or a judge or a detective, or a Buddhist, or an atheist, or and agnostic, or any other thing but a catholic. If you are a catholic you have the truth –call it a cross if you like. To proselytize, to proclaim the good news, is to proclaim that truth, not to ponder another “truth”.
This truth was revealed to us, it was a gift; if we became catholic and remain so because of it, by definition, we accept that truth as it is. Many have rejected the truth, or compromised it, or misunderstood it, or have not herd it, many will hear it soon, some may never hear it; many never did. What will happen to all these souls? I don’t know, but it is relativistic to think that they will be saved without accepting the truth.  Any other  “truth” will not do for that purpose.

[Ed NY]

Rick,

I'm not sure who you are addressing but I'm glad some things just "seem" to you, probably meaning you have not come to a definitive conclusion.

First of all, the Catholic Church says that the only known way to salvation is through baptism. If a non-Christian is going to be saved, only God really knows how. It is a mystery.

The Church also teaches that although the Sacraments are bound to God, God Himself is not bound to the Sacraments. God can act however and wherever He pleases. Still, the Church is the locus of God's grace. Without the Church, salvation for anyone is not possible.

Non-Christians who might be saved have to be real seekers. There are some who say these non-Christians probably receive some revelations on the basic kerygma which would allow them to comprehend some truths which are necessary for salvation.

It is necessary to realize that all graces (which are necessary for salvation) given to anyone can only come through Jesus Christ, Who is God, Who can neither deceive nor be deceived.

Ed

[rick MD]

Rick,


First of all, the Catholic Church says that the only known way to salvation is through baptism. ....God can act however and wherever He pleases. Still, the Church is the locus of God's grace. Without the Church, salvation for anyone is not possible.

Non-Christians who might be saved have to be real seekers. There are some who say these non-Christians probably receive some revelations on the basic kerygma which would allow them to comprehend some truths which are necessary for salvation.

It seems to me that those two paragraphs contradict each other. My first post agrees with the first paragraph. I say that you can't have it both ways.

[Ed NY]

Rick,

Please re-phrase your last post. You quoted what I said but you edited it. It is not clear which set of statements you are referring to as the first paragraph. It appears you agree with the direct quotes from the Catechism, at the very least.

You also did not quote the very last statement of my post previous to this one. What do you think about it?

I also used the word "kerygma" earlier. It refers to Catholic Church teachings, not just to any foreign idea.

Thanks.
Ed

[rick MD]

The two paragraphs that I quoted –the parts of your two paragraphs-- contradict each other.

In one paragraph you say that something is not possible and in the second one you say that it is possible.

[Ed NY]

Rick,

There are no contradictions in what I have posted. Please re-read. You won't even point out these contradictions, except to say they exist.

Also, please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the one promulgated by Pope John Paul II. Please remember that the Catholic Church gave you the Nicene Creed. Catholic Church teachings remain true, whether or not you believe them or you understand them.

Ed