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[Ed NY]

Some people say that "People of other religions understand God as much as we do." Isn't this a form of relativism?

First of all, the Son of God revealed Himself to the Apostles who, through New Testament tradition handed down these revelations to succeeding generations of Christians. In fact, these revelations are handed down to the whole world indeed. The Catholic Church teaches about Redemption and the Redeemer who is the Son of God. There are endless ramifications to having or not having a Redeemer in an individual's understanding of God and his/her Church teachings.

Secondly, when one does not believe in a Redeemer, how is salvation to be achieved in a person's understanding? Is "salvation" even an appropriate word? Possibly, one would believe that he/she can enter Heaven through his/her own works or if that fails, he/she would enter Heaven in a manner that is reminiscent of predestination. Also, one could believe instead, without having been taught about a Redeemer, that he/she would be saved through God's mercy. In this case, there is effective denial that a Redeemer does not exist.

Thirdly, human actions could be spiritualized, i.e., offered up to God, precisely because the Son of God assumed human nature. This allows for "continuous" prayer. In "theologies" which do not have a place for a Redeemer, this is not possible at all.

It is worth listening to and living out the teachings of the Catholic Church.

[chris]

Hi!
My little offering...

Relativism as in the Oxford Dictionary: the doctrine that knowledge, truth, and morality exist in relation to culture, society, or historical context, and are not absolute.

Jesus Christ is the fullness of God's revelation, the Way, Truth and Life...and that it the Catholic Truth and stance. As Catholics that has
to be foundational. 

Having said that it is also true that not all of humankind have that awareness or are in a position to accept that.  Does this mean that all who do not know or accept Jesus as Christians, are condemned?? Does it mean that to say the good people among these will perish simply because the do not profess to be Catholic or Christian? All goodness is Godly... and we have only ONE God.

My Question would be, "have we so limited God's love and power"? Do we not have to believe that our God is so great that the means God uses for redemption is way beyond our finite minds.


The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions. It has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and doctrines which, although differing in many ways from its own teaching, nevertheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men and women. Yet it proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without fail, Christ who is the way, the truth and the life (Jn.14:6). In him, in whom God reconciled all things to himself (see 2 Cor 5:18-19), people find the fullness of their religious life.
Nostra Aetate, Latin for "In Our Time," which was adopted by the Second Vatican Council on October 28, 1965

Yes.. it is worth listening and living all of the Church's teachings.

Amen.

Chris

[Ed NY]

Hi Shar and Chris,

The abbreviated definition taken from the dictionary seems to be good enough. Usually, dictionary definitions are not accurate. People oftentimes borrow (or steal) a word from the Church, use the word inaccurately, have it redefined, thus leading to confusion and dilution of the concept.

It is always nice to see the Cathechism quoted. I hope it is quoted more often and not only when it is convenient.

All salvation comes through Christ. Pope Pius XI and the Second Vatican Council made clear statements on the salvation of Christians and non-Christians.

Chris' reply does not address an idea on the second paragraph where it is mentioned that when one believes in God's mercy (but only in a Christian sense), one effectively affirms that there is in fact a Redeemer.

The third paragraph is meant to address the issue of sanctification where a person grows in holiness by uniting his/her daily efforts and struggles with God (again in a Christian sense). There are objectively immoral acts (per the Catechism) which do not acquire spiritual merit regardless of external circumstances. Since all persons have a sense of what is good and right (due to natural law), a disorder of the human will comes about when people still commit immoral acts. A disordered human will on individuals prevents spiritual growth and maturity with repercussions to the same individuals and society. These underline the importance of listening to the teachings of the Church which is an expert on human nature.

Natural law, which God has engraved in the hearts of all men, allows a person to recognize what is good and right through the use of human reason, albeit with difficulty. That there are good people in other religions is attributable to natural law. Faith and revelation give us the truths which natural law alone cannot reach.

Ed

[chris]

The way i see it.. Jesus is Universal Saviour.. and that includes all.. when Jesus was born the angels sang "Peace to all people of goodwill" not to Jews strictly or any other.

Faith is a gift... Conversion is gift..  How, when, where, why Redemption happens is in God's loving and merciful hands. If Dismas [as Tradition calls the 'good' thief] was allowd to 'steal' heaven at the eleventh hour can we know who else?


Maybe.. Karl Rahner's theory of the "anonymous Christian" might help one understand the how? But today that term is not acceptable by the Church, as it is said to violate the rights of other religions... so... Read Nostra Aetate?

Redemption ultimately is utterly in God's hands.. do Catholics / Christians have a stronghold there?? Who knows?  only God!

Shalom!
Chris

[Ed NY]

Chris,

You seem to really believe that people of other religions know God as much as Christians. This is the original idea and question posted. Your posts on who is ultimately saved and who is not is not the original question. Don't people grow in understanding and have a much better chance of achieving it if they have the fullness of truth?

You also keep skipping the other ideas such as those on sanctification. How about the Catholic Saints who have discovered what sanctification really means?

Are you also saying that all those who are ultimately saved have the same level of understanding at the end of their lives? Don't the sacraments and all the graces they confer mean nothing?

Let's be careful we do not fall into relativism.

Ed

[Ed NY]

Chris,

You quote the Vatican II document but effectively contradict parts of it.

Rahner's writings have been criticized by Cardinal Ratzinger. Rahner has had his time.

Ed

[chris]

Ed... you have not read my post well. Never have I said that all religions have the fulness of God as seen in Jesus.  All are saved in and only in and through Jesus as, I repeat Jesus is the Universal Saviour. It is God who has reached down to us in sheer love and no matter what level we are at.. God does the same.  [Use your talents accordingly coz each one is unique]

While we are called to be witnesses to our faith in Christ, we cannot force or impose our teachings on people who have other beliefs.. and we do not judge. Only God does that. Our way is not theirs.  And God's ways are often beyond ours... Sacraments, salvation, sanctifiction mean a whole lot to me as a Catholic but to others??  God sees a bigger picture than any one of us and has a bigger heart that includes more than we can imagine. There is no relativism in this! There is no need for further explaination either.

Shalom!
Chris

[Deacon Anthony]

Ed... you have not read my post well. Never have I said that all religions have the fulness of God as seen in Jesus.  All are saved in and only in and through Jesus as, I repeat Jesus is the Universal Saviour. It is God who has reached down to us in sheer love and no matter what level we are at.. God does the same.  [Use your talents accordingly coz each one is unique]

While we are called to be witnesses to our faith in Christ, we cannot force or impose our teachings on people who have other beliefs.. and we do not judge. Only God does that. Our way is not theirs.  And God's ways are often beyond ours... Sacraments, salvation, sanctifiction mean a whole lot to me as a Catholic but to others??  God sees a bigger picture than any one of us and has a bigger heart that includes more than we can imagine. There is no relativism in this! There is no need for further explaination either.

Shalom!
Chris

Ur right in saying we shouldn't force our beliefs on anyone, force doesn't work.  But are u saying we shouldn't evangelize and bring all peoples to the fulness of faith?  That is in direct violation of Scripture.

† I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, 3 striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace:
4  † one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
(The New American Bible)

To let people live w/o the sacraments and to not "Go and make disciples of all nations"  isn't what Jesus asked us to do.  We should love the separated brothers enough to want them to have what we have and do what we can w/ love and compassion to bring them to the faith.  Live and let live in this case is wrong.  We do have an obligations to make our ways their ways if we love them.

[Bruno]

Many confuse the terms Redempion and Salvation.

Christ Redeemed all men ("reopened the Gates of Heaven" which were closed to mankind by the sin of Adam) - made it possible for all men to go to Heaven - when He died on the Cross.  He Redeemed all men without our help.

All who are "Saved" (actually get into Heaven) are of course saved by the Grace of God . This Grace is free, however we must "ask to receive, seek to find, knock before the door is opened". In other words, Christ will not save us without our cooperation.

"Nothing defiled will enter Heaven". Hence all who are free of Mortal Sin and have atoned for the punishment due to their sins either on earth or in Purgatory will go to Heaven. All who die with at least one unforgiven Mortal Sin will surely go to Hell whether they are Catholic or non-Catholic.

Many non-Catholics have rejected the main source for Sanctifying Grace - The Seven Sacraments. For example, we ask for the Grace of forgivness of our sins through the Sacraments of Babtism and Confession. 

All get the Actual Grace needed for conversion to the Catholic Faith. They are however free to accept or reject it (to seek truth or to be content in their current errors). If they choose to reject it, then they at the same time refuse God's tender offer of Mercy and will face Judjment without the Mercy they rejected during life. They are ignorant by choice - cupable ignorance.

There is a possibility of "invinciple ignorance" - they don't know through no fault of their own (i.e. a child that has never heard of the Catholic Church).  If such truly loves God and intends to do His will, then it is possible that they will get the Grace of Perfect
Contrition and make it eventually to Heaven after a likely stay in Purgatory for awhile. Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation - even these are saved by the Grace of the Catholic Church - prayers and sacrifice of Christ and the Saints through the Centuries.

Many of our non-Catholic friends have joined churches that have kept some of the Truths of the Catholic Church and this makes them attractive to many and thereby keeps many from seeking the helps found only in the Catholic Church. (Which is more evil - Poison labled as such or Poison posing as "an Angel of light"?. )To reject one Truth is the same as rejecting them all". "I hear your Doctrine on the Powers of the Priesthood and reject them." I hear your Doctrine on the Mass and I reject it." etc.  To receive the Actual Grace of Conversion is truly a Gift - that is often rejected to their peril.

In light of the above, to say that one Religion is as good as another is the error relativism. Contradictory things cannot both be true. The fulness of Truth is found only in the Catholic Church. We do our non-Catholic friends no favor by encouraging them to remain is such serious error. However to come on too strong may drive them away. Hence prayer and  personal Sanctity is needed first and then gentle persuasion with much kindness when they are ready for our help.

God Bless,
Bruno

 

[Ed NY]

Chris,

I posted these ideas because Christians and Catholics are being converted to another religion in some countries in the Asian and American continents. They are being misled by false teachings.

I believe these are caused, at least partly, by our refusal to discuss differences between religions. These are serious things.

The Vatican II document which you quoted says that we will continue to uphold Catholic teachings on the Redeemer. I've done nothing but that on these posts.

Let the readers decide. You are discouraging important discussions.

Ed

[Ed NY]

and we do not judge. Only God does that. Our way is not theirs.  And God's ways are often beyond ours...

Chris,

We always hear that we should not judge (people), that only God can judge. It is true.

What does "judging" or "not judging" really mean? "Not judging" means that we do not judge the state of the soul of another person, since only God really knows what is in the heart, mind, and conscience. This is where moral culpability or lack of it comes in.

However, we can judge ideas and objective actions. There are objectively immoral acts, for example. There are teachings which are objectively incorrect and misleading. There are ideas which are harmful. And how does "fraternal correction" work?

Of course, the conscience must be correctly formed. If it is not, it must be reformed in a way it is intended to be by the Creator. A well-formed conscience does not dehumanize but upholds human dignity.

Ed

[chris]

But are u saying we shouldn't evangelize and bring all peoples to the fulness of faith?  That is in direct violation of Scripture.

Just to clarify...

I have happily, on the Feast of Sts Peter and Paul, become a godmother to woman who is 82 years old. She is a terminally ill patient I visited 2 months ago.  That was my first visit to her.  She was a Buddhist and we talked or an hour or so...and at the end of it she asked for Baptism, Catholic she said not in a Christian denomination she clearly stated .  She speaks no English, strictly dilect and evangelisation happened with the little dialect i spoke.  Arrangements to catechise her was made and upon my 2nd visit, she was baptised with the name Pauline, in a beautiful quiet ceremony.  She was radiant and her joy eluded for all to see.

Did I evangelise? Did she have the fullness of faith? God worked I was merely the instrument and "I thank my God, each time I think of her."

Shalom!
Chris

BTW: Ed, I said to read Nostra Aetate, not Karl Rahner

[Deacon Anthony]

Did I evangelise? Did she have the fullness of faith? God worked I was merely the instrument and "I thank my God, each time I think of her."

Shalom!
Chris

U are talking about an extraordinary circumstance where God used u as a tool.  I would hope that all of us allow Him to use us as tools. I also believe He expects us to go out into the world and create opportunities to bring people to the fulness of His truth under ordinary circumstances and this is where I understand u to say we should not go. 

[chris]

... a final word...

God is 'extraordinary' all the time... if we but have eyes to see and ears to hear. God leads wherever God wants to lead, "For me to live is Christ" ultimately.

Amen! Pax Christi
Chris

[Terence IRL]

"Secondly, when one does not believe in a Redeemer, how is salvation to be achieved in a person's understanding?"

There is a dangerous level of arrogance, which borders on insulting God, in that question. The suggestion, at the very least implies, that only Christians and particularly Catholics have the possibility of Redemption. Such a suggestion makes a lie out of God's Infinite Mercy and Love for ALL mankind. Such a question/statement clearly suggests that, since Jews do not believe the Messiah has already been, there is no redemption possible for them. That is blatant arrogance and cetainly lacks the basic principles of Christianity.

Yes we are called to Evangelise, not through forcing our beliefs on others - but by our example of LIVING the Teachings of Christ. It's a matter of Christianity in Action - not verbalised.

4  † one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
(The New American Bible) Note the small word ALL

"Rahner's writings have been criticized by Cardinal Ratzinger. Rahner has had his time." If his work is to be dismissed, what then is the position of Cardinal Ratzinger who was openly criticised and corrected several times by Pope John Paul II? Is Cardinal Ratzinger's work to be dismissed too, not withstanding that he is now the Pope?