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[ec2kadm]

Anonymous
Sunday, May 26, 2002 - 06:44 pm
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What is Pope John Paul II's stance on gay members of the Catholic Church?


Anonymous (152.163.253.38)
Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 09:42 pm
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I am sure he loves each and every one of them


Rae (Rae) (12.247.119.
Monday, June 16, 2003 - 03:35 pm
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One place you can referrence is "The Tidings" Catholic Newspaper in Los Angeles, or the Los Angeles Diocese. Cardinal Mahoney has a strong gay Catholic community, and there is a lot of reference to that kind of question.
 
 
 
   Posted: Jul 14 2003, 11:53 AM 
 
As the new Catechism of the Catholic Church says, Homosexual persons are to be ‘accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination should be avoided.’ It is also important to know that ‘homosexual acts are of great depravity,’ and ‘under no circumstances can they be approved.’ For more information, see the Catechism sections 2357 to 2359.

So it should be clear from these statements that Our Holy Father Pope John Paul II believes and knows that for Gays and Lesbians to act on their sexual tendencies is a very serious sin. This should not only be obvious because of the Holy Spirit’s guidance in the Pope but also because this same man promulgated the new Catechism. It is just as clear that these people should be treated with respect. Hate crimes and obnoxious jokes aimed at Gays are just as wrong as hate crimes and jokes made for the sake of racism. No one in the worlds of theology or psychology still knows for sure where these tendencies come from. Until we find out, we must urge any homosexuals we know to apply themselves to prayer and the Sacraments that they might be strengthened by God and his Church not to commit these acts. As to whether Homosexual tendencies can be eliminated, there is much debate. The reality is, there are many Homosexual Christians and Catholics and they should be treated just as a Heterosexual person who is tempted to have sexual relations outside of marriage. It is a sin like any other. Homosexual acts are a mortal sin, just as fornication, adultery, abortion, etc. It is arguably no better or worse than any other mortal sin. Let us pray for our Gay and Lesbian brothers and sisters in the Lord, as well as those outside of Christendom. 
 
 
 
mike Posted: Nov 18 2003, 01:36 AM 
 
I would like to point out that Genesis says Man and Woman He made them. Jesus says, A yes or no anything else is not Him. God did not make anything in between, nor did He make a mistake. Now saying that, I will be their friend and I will pray for them and as Matthew Chapter 18 compells me to, I will tell them they are wrong and should change. I know of at least two with whom I have been friends for ages who have changed and are celibate. You see by Baptism and Confirmation we are obligated to speak out against errors and be charitable to sinners. I have not seen or read anything by our Pope that says different
Mike 
 
 
 
Christina Posted: Nov 18 2003, 06:35 AM 
 
Amen, Mike........very well said.

--------------------
"Cast yourself into the arms of God and be very sure that
if He wants anything of you, He will fit you for the work and give you the strength. St. Philip Neri."

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[ec2kadm]

Robert Posted: Oct 1 2004, 04:54 PM 
 
I just wanted to point out that although it is true that all homosexual acts are intrinsically evil. It is also taught that all romantic homosexual displays are also sinful. Where holding hands, dancing and kissing between unmarried heterosexuals within certain limits are permissable, these same actions when displayed by persons of the same sex are not. 
 
 
 
Sylvia Posted: Jan 30 2005, 01:34 AM 
 
I would imagine that it woukd depend on the action being an occasion of sin for those individuals.
Sylvia 

 
 
dmarie   Posted: Apr 5 2005, 01:40 AM 
 
agreed Jesse, Mike, Christina, and everyone.

--------------------
The Lord is my light and my salvation,
whom shall I fear?
The Lord is the stronghold of my life,
of whom shall I be afraid?
 
 
 
CCN Posted: Apr 14 2005, 09:08 PM 
 
QUOTE (mike @ Nov 18 2003, 01:36 AM)
...God did not make anything in between, nor did He make a mistake... I will tell them they are wrong and should change. I know of at least two with whom I have been friends for ages who have changed and are celibate...Mike
***
...Among the key findings:
Several studies suggest that gay men, lesbians, and bisexuals appear to have higher rates of "Mental Disorders" compared with hetersexuals,althought not to be level of a serious pathology... Faith 

It seems that I'm the only gay person who has chosen to comment in this forum.
One member said something about not wanting to hurt our feelings, I want to also say that I don't intend to hurt or offend anyone by my comments or questions.
I can't agree with the quote from Mike about not making anything in between. Although it is VERY different from homosexuality, the cases of hermaphroditism from the beginning of humanity--are clear cases of "in between". Many of these people have functional organs of both sexes.
Present-day medical facilities can change all of this with surgery while the child is an infant--not so in years past.
Also Mike, your gay friends who "changed and are celibate" could very possibly have changed only their behavior--i.e. stopped having sex.
Just because a gay person doesn't have sex, does not mean that he or she isn't gay. You would still be "straight" even if you were celibate, right?
I do agree with you that God doesn't make mistakes-- I don't think that I am a mistake because I'm gay. I have cousins, a brother, distant cousins, aunts, uncles (some I've never met, or who died before I was born) who are gay --I see this often in the gay communtity-- this in itself leads many to believe it's genetic-- it certainly wasn't learned behavior in my home.

A quick comment on Faith's post regarding mental disorders-- that's very possibly true about higher rates among the glbt community.
Among any group of oppressed people there is more mental illness. Condemnation, lack of acceptance, bashing, public humiliation, rejection from family, peers, threats, even killings because of who you are has a tendency to create all sorts of mental, emotional problems. Not to say that many mental problems are not the result of chemical disorders (depression etc) but that type of mental illness doesn't seem to discriminate by gender or sexual orientation.

Just a few other things.
If sex is supposed to be for procreation, then having sex for fun or as a result of passion must be wrong for the heterosexual people as well.
Nothing in the Ten Commandments alludes to homosexuality but definitely refers to heterosexual acts. No matter what else is cited as referring to homosexuality, the Ten Commandments were according to the Bible, given to Moses as God's Law.
All that considered, Jesus said that the most important of those Commandments were to love God with all your heart and to love each other as Jesus had loved them (the apostles).
If I'm wrong, I want to know but I can't find anything Jesus said about homosexuality.

There has been speculation and interpretation of the Word of Jesus Christ going on for 2000 years.
He was criticized in His own time for consorting with what some might today call "trash"--- some interpretations of Mary Magdalene say she was a prostitute, yet she was a disciple of Jesus,likely a friend since other apostles were jealous because He told her things that He didn't tell them. She clearly had a place of honor at the Cross and was one of the first to find He was missing from the tomb. For the male apostles to listen to her was some kind of honor in itself since women were usually the last to have places of honor.

I realize that you may think I'm rambling and perhaps I am. I feel compelled to put in a couple of cents worth and more knowing full well that nothing I say will convince anyone of anything but it'll make me feel better to express my feelings about this topic--- or perhaps somewhat "off-topic" ---

1 Samuel, Chapter 17 begins the relationship between David and Jonathan. Please take the time to read the entire story with an open mind

[firulais]

Replay to Gay person...no signature found in there...

Gay definey is not a mental disorder...Open your mind if you want and will see that sience is only a money maker!,  We are not going to live forever, as you know this is explained in genesis, I am glad you reading the Bible so you will be agree with this, science methods only give us a pain relief, few procedures and a bunch of pills but that is all, remember that Jesus Crist told the people... So many will say I am here or there, don't listen to them it is just a lie, in this times is all about money, as much you have as much you spend is up to you, help, but not for happiness...Ok!!...open your mind now, Think in your own spirit... Do you really believe that the brain cells think and a bunch of them altogether with chemical reactions make the human "Think" even the Plants or small microorganisms are too complex to believe this...The true as many people is looking and  I believe, now at my 40 years is that Spirit can live forever if you belive in Jesus Christ gospel, the flesh will die ...No, my friend, can I call you friend??...Pherhaps my conclusion is not well accepted but I strongly believe our spirit is the one that really make the decisions, the one who control our feelings, emotions, the way we are and we THINK, why new borns know what to do even in the womb?...God create this world, but why the humans can have free will?, why all living things follow the nature rules and we don't, even if we know that our decitions are messing everything?...Do you think  our parents make the decision to bring us here...Better say this!!The decision has been made for our self spirit, if you want to know why ask me for the part in the Bible where tell you this, I will be glad to refresh this for you ...Then the family and relatives not necessary play a final role in your decisions, humans may copy some of them but  not necessary mind that you can not correct them when you are grown up!!...DNA and all those discoveries that sience is trying to understand about our body and make the world to believe in them, is easy to explain here...let's say that they can clone Jesus Crist body!!...Well, in theory they reproduce Jesus body but not the Master Spirit will live inside, not without God's "password" same as your spirit did it in order to live in your own body...Is this too complicated???...If your own spirit control your functions since you are in the womb, minds you just came as is, and not anything than your self can control the way you are or you feel or your emotions...Blame in others like parents, relatives the Pope or God doesn't make any control in your spirit....

Hope this help anyone...Have a blessed nigth!!

[Charles]

Let us put aside our personal prejudices, interpretations and judgements concerning homosexuality. 

The emphasis for anyone who is struggling with homosexuality should be on the sacraments.  Especially the sacrament of penance.  Homosexuality, Adultery and Fornication are sinful conditions that affect the soul, deeply.  A sin is a sin is a sin.  The remedy is the sacrament of penance (popularly known as confession).  The graces received in this sacrament are beyond comprehension and explanation.  It is power from God to resist the temptations of the flesh.  My brother and sisters, don't look for a compromise or a permissiveness to accomodate a certain "life-style".  Come to the sacraments, the renewable source of grace and power.  Fight the good fight.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum

[cajunrick]

Homosexuality, Adultery and Fornication are sinful conditions that affect the soul, deeply.  A sin is a sin is a sin.

Our Church says differently.  Homosexual activity is considered evil and therefore sinful, but homosexual tendencies or attractions are not.

An unmarried person with heterosexual tendencies is not committing sin.  Neither is an unmarried person with homosexual tendencies.

An unmarried person who engages in sexual activities, whether homosexual or heterosexual, is engaged in improper behavior and therefore committing sin.

A married person who engages in heterosexual sex with their marriage partner is acting within God's plan, and not sinning.

Adultery and fornication are actions; homosexuality (like heterosexuality) is a state of being, not sinful in and of itself.  It's what we do with our sexuality that makes us sinners.

[JimAroo]

Very clear explanation of the moral aspects of the question, Rick. 

Homosexual inclination is NOT a sin just as  suffering from clinical depression is NOT a sin but it like homosexual inclination is objectivly disordered.  See CCC Paragraph 2358 below. I would regret it deeply if my brother suffered from a mental illness or homosexual inclination.  But to pretend in either case that there was nothing wrong with him would be a failure of charity on my part.  I would never wish either condition on anyone.  That is one of  the reasons that men with deep seated homosexual inclinations are unfit for the priesthood.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

[cajunrick]

This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.

There are many disorders, and homosexuality is just one of them.  Addiction is another.  The sin is not in the disorder, but in the active response.  To succumb to homosexual attraction is sinful, just as to fail to to your very best to overcome addiction is sinful.  I thank God I am not afflicted with either disorder, although I often feel that God has given me more than my share of trials.

I read a quote from Blessed Teresa of Calcutta the other day:  "I know God will never give me more than I can handle.  I just wish sometimes God didn't trust me so much!"

[JimAroo]

I think your use of addiction as a disorder is excellent.  We wouldnt ordain a man who was suffering from deep seated addiction.  So the point still holds:   No ordinations for men suffering from deep seated homosexual tendencies.

By the way, the Vatican said as much in a 1961 directive.........which we ignored, at least in the USA.  We should have listened.

[jon316white]

When I was young and away from the Church and God, I hated gay people and wished them dead. That feeling was far far worse than the love the gay people felt towards each other. Now firmly into middle age I have softened considerably on the gay issue. I believe that sincere love, not sex, between adults is a good thing even if is between folks of the same gender. I would rather see two gay people in love with each other than see two hetrosexual people wanting to kill each other. I believe that the idea of being gay is a mental sickness, mis-directed emotions. So i try hard to remember that gays are our brothers and sisters and we are to love them and help them. Christ said he who is without sin may cast the first stone. The sins I committed today are just as bad as the sin of homosexuality. I trust the Holy Spirit and he will call and change sinners if they are willing and able to change. We must never under estimate the level of God's mercy. In the end God will judge us all by the condition of our hearts.

[carolyn]

My son has a gay friend,,,,He was baptised catholic,,,Joe has never brought home a gay friend before,my first thought is , truth,,and his soul,,,,we sat down and talked about life, the world view annd the church view,its seems to me he had alot of anger,annd never researched the churcges view on homosexuality,,,,he said he was bor like that,,,,I disagreed,I said feelings are not fact,we must have a properly informed conscience,in your case you are not fully informed to label yourself,we must guide ourselves with reaso,his reasoning is world view.when I asked for him to have an open mund and research church teaching on the subject, he got very angry.he showed me areciept for a ring he bought his partner,so i said you are acting like the traditional husband, buynbg a ring,he smiled and bragged that his boyfriennd was a nice Irish catholic guy.....I got so angry,we went on to speak he said lets be honest,thats all he had to say,,,,,,,he said feelings are fact,meainng sexual feelings,I honestly said,,maybe its spiritual,he got really angry..I told him we still love him and will pray for him,,,,,,,If anny one wats a good book to read on this subject,,,you can go to www. Dr. Conrad Baars   web site    and get the book  the Homosexuals search for happiness,,,,he explanis clearly that these people sufferring    were not given the gift of themselves ad have alot missinng in their development.i told Joe my son to pray for him and not to hang out with him and his boyfriend,he dosent need to be exposed to them making and such. he agreed, God Bless

[cajunrick]

I think you'll find this article from the Catholic News Agency interesting.  I posted the whole article in another thread, so I won't post it again, but it shows that homosexual tendencies can be overcome, even by the most ardent activist.

[TheCatholic]

Anonymous
Sunday, May 26, 2002 - 06:44 pm
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What is Pope John Paul II's stance on gay members of the Catholic Church?

The Pope stated at the beginning of the Catechism that it was a "sure norm" for teaching the faith. So I am pretty sure he would refer you to that. And it states:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.