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[Ed NY]

Rick,

Baptism is a Christian Sacrament which is shared by both Catholics and Protestants. It is a channel of grace.

Catholics are provided with all the necessary channels of grace (there are 7 of them) necessary for sanctification. Each Sacrament has its own "modality", i.e., the Sacraments impart to the human soul certain specific types of graces. Thus, a Catholic is much better equipped than a Protestant.

Baptism is one of the three Sacraments (Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Orders) which impart a permanent seal on the human soul. This "seal" is sometimes called "root of grace". This "permanent seal" affects a person's spiritual disposition in a real way. It disposes a person towards contrition when a sin is committed, for example.

The sacramental seal is not just a dead marking or sign, say on a piece of paper. It is a living reality in the human soul which calls a person to God.

Ed

[rick MD]

I don’t see how that bears on the question. What do you mean by “personal” and “relationship”.

[Ed NY]

Please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Also, please read about the lives of the Saints.

Faith evokes a response from the whole person. You can be given objective definitions but if you ask this kind of questions, I do not believe you will really benefit from these definitions.

[rick MD]

I was looking for an idea of what these two words mean to you personally, not what it says in the dictionary. If “personal” and “relationship” are just ink on paper then they do not mean anything at all, don’t you think?

[Ed NY]

Rick,

You seem to be asking everybody here, since you never address anyone by name.

Please prove and show that you will benefit from further discussions on this matter.

Also, if you wish to talk about sanctifying grace and the grace of justification, go for it. Please don't beat around the bush.

Please tell us also where you are coming from. Guile is not always a virtue. I think there are scriptural references against it.

Ed

[rick MD]

I am asking a general question of anyone who may like to talk about what I asked. It was one of the first topics of this thread, I believe:

I answer, "I was saved by my baptism, I am saved because I accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior, and I will be saved if I continue to live as Jesus wants me to and continue to do God's will."

I am sorry, I was not aware that I needed to prove that I could benefit from a discussion. I don’t see how, or to whom, I could possibly prove such a thing.
In any event, perhaps some one else may want to talk about the original subject.  Please do not feel obligated to contribute.

[Ed NY]

Rick,

The reason why you were asked about the possible benefit to you is you seem to easily miss key ideas being said by others.

Witness the following:

Baptism is a Christian Sacrament which is shared by both Catholics and Protestants. It is a channel of grace.

And this,

The sacramental seal is not just a dead marking or sign, say on a piece of paper. It is a living reality in the human soul which calls a person to God.

What follows is a quote from you which does not seem to follow from the above quotes:

If “personal” and “relationship” are just ink on paper then they do not mean anything at all, don’t you think?

Could you please explain how your question follows from what was said about baptism?

Could you also please explain why you dissociate baptism (and the graces associated with it) from a "personal relationship" with God?

Ed

[Bruno]

The Sacrament of Baptism does not necessarily "Save" in and of Itself. It is indeed necessary as a first start. Many of the Baptized do not end their lives "Saved". Being Saved means that one has made it to Heaven after death. Untill the moment of death all of us are capable of losing Salvation through sin. Nothing defiled enters Heaven.

Hence all who die (Catholic or non-Catholic) with one unforgiven Mortal Sin on their Soul will never enter Heaven. These sins are normally removed (after Baptism) through the Sacrament of Confession - which non-Catholics in general reject to their peril.

It is possible that some may have these sins forgiven through the Grace of Perfect Contrition (sorrow for sin because they offend God whom we love). Imperfect Contrition (sorrow for sin because of fear of Hell) is sufficient in the Sacrament of Confession. Those with Perfect Contrition will want to go to Confession ASAP when they realize its necessity.

Of course all of us wish our Contrition was Perfect. The easiest ones however for us to fool is ourselves. One does not have a "personal relationship" with God till they get in the State of Grace via a valid Baptism followed by frequent Confession and use of the other Sacraments - live as sincere practicing Catholics, that is as God directed us to live.

Those who say in effect I hear your Doctrines on the Power of the Priesthood, The Holy Eucharist, Confession to a Catholic Priest, etc - and reject them are fooling themselves if thinking they truly have a "personal relationship with God" and are therefore "Saved".

We cannot pick and choose what we will believe. We must believe all the God Revealed because He revealed it. He comissoned His Church (The Catholic Church)to teach these Truths to us. "To reject one is the same as rejecting them all."


God Bless

[rick MD]

Bruno

I do agree with you in all you say, especially about the necessity of the sacraments.

Obviously, for a Catholic, these sacraments are a prerequisite for a relationship with God, and they are in fact a relationship in themselves, but does the fact that one has receive some sacraments give one automatically a “personal relationship” with God. If this is true that would mean that any relationship with God --weather it is a good or a bad relationship-- constitutes a “personal relationship with God”. I bet, and I am sorry to say, that there are a lot of people out there that are baptized, and maybe have even received other sacraments, and could not care less or very little about it.

One could fault non-Catholics with thinking that having a “personal relationship” with God is all that is needed for salvation; but one could also fault even good Catholics with believing that just by receiving the sacraments they are saved.

Does “a personal relationship with God” not imply a positive relationship, one based on reciprocating God’s love? Something closer to God? Does “a personal relationship with God” not mean something that encompasses the sacraments and is beyond them because of the way in which we accept them and live them?

[Ed NY]

Rick and Bruno,

Through a valid baptism, the theological virutes of faith, hope and charity are infused into the human soul. The four cardinal virtues of prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance are infused as well. The gifts of the Holy Spirit which are wisdom, knowledge, understanding, counsel, fortitude, piety, and fear of the Lord are also given. Original sin and all personal sins are also forgiven (though the effects of original sin in the human person remains).

The virtues need to be developed and practiced in charity in order for them to grow and in order for them to be Christian virtues and not just natural virtues. In this way, the gifts of the Holy Spirit also mature into the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

As for a person in mortal sin, charity, which is the greatest of the theological virtues, is lost. Sanctifying grace and the grace of justification are also lost. They can be recovered though the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation, assuming there is contrition.

Here, however, St. Thomas Aquinas says that faith and hope can still exist in the human soul in a state of mortal sin. The Catechism does not deny this. As long as one is a living human being, God continues to call. The baptismal seal is one reality which continuously calls one to conversion and contrition.

As for a person who has not committed a mortal sin (only venial sins), there are various ways to make up for the venial sins. One sure way of course is by receiving the Holy Eucharist with great devotion. However, there are also other ways such as prayers, fasting, almsgiving, good works, and reading of Sacred Scriptures. For a Catholic, the strength to avoid venial sins can be had from the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation.

I hope we are not assuming that other people are in a state of mortal sin. That is what they call "judging".

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

537 Through Baptism the Christian is sacramentally assimilated to Jesus, who in his own baptism anticipates his death and resurrection. The Christian must enter into this mystery of humble self-abasement and repentance, go down into the water with Jesus in order to rise with him, be reborn of water and the Spirit so as to become the Father's beloved son in the Son and "walk in newness of life".

The Catholic Church accepts the baptism of many Christian groups as valid, as long as the minister of baptism intends to do as the Catholic Church does at the moment of baptism.

Ed

[Ed NY]

The Sacrament of Baptism does not necessarily "Save" in and of Itself.

Bruno, I disagree.

If a person does not commit a mortal sin after baptism, that person will be saved.

Of course, we do not want to be limited to this minimalist view of Christian life. We also do not want to forget about Purgatory (which is not Heaven). We also want to reciprocate God's love. We are all called to be Saints.

Ed

[Bruno]

Ed, You are correct I agree with all that you said.

[rick MD]

Well, I do not know one Catholic, and I know a lot who ever would say "Jesus Christ as my "personal" Lord and savior".  That is a well known Protestant statement.

Is there anyone out there who realy wants to talk about this topic??