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Rich
Monday, April 30, 2001 - 01:55 pm
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Abortion is murder. I and the Catholic Church are totally against it. But one question keeps cropping up in my mind. Should we make it illegal in the US? The reason being, there are always those individuals who, no matter what, do not do what they are supposed to. What I am trying to say is that even if all the abortion clinics were closed down by law in the U.S. there would always be some who would still seek abortions. We would revert to coat hanger abortions in back alleys. Like it or not, not everyone believes in God and amongst those who do, we are all sinnners before God. Shouldn't we as believers in God and profess to love our fellow man, be also humane as a society? It would be nice if the law stated that everyone who does not want a child has to give birth to that child no matter what, and then leave it optional for the mother whether or not to give it up for adoption. But we all know that no matter what, even if this were law, some would still not carry the baby to full term.

Food for thought.


Linda
Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 07:39 pm
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Hi Rich,
I have also struggled with this idea also. Like you I am
a Catholic and totally against abortion for ANY reason.
By making something legal society says it is OK.
Abortion is not OK and is immoral and so very wrong.
The whole of society suffers from the sin of a few people
involved. I don't think God would understand it in any
case. If by keeping abortion legal to prevent some
"back alley" abortions from happening, aren't we still
sending the message it is OK. It is very sad when a
woman resorts to such a horrible act as to kill her own
child, but in that case it is her decision to do so, and not
society saying its OK. And in the long run there would
be far less death from abortion. Also death is still
happening in these "abortion mills", even though it is
illegal. I'm sure there are more deaths from legal
abortion than are being reported.
Thanks for listening.
Your friend close by,
Linda


Jesus Gonzalez
Monday, September 09, 2002 - 10:21 pm
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What if a woman has been raped and the pregnancy is a danger to her health or the child, what other than abortion should be done?


Robert Stout
Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 12:11 am
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Let us suppose that in the above situations we have a woman who has been raped. Now suppose for whatever reason she waits until the child is born and then because he is the product of a rape she kills him. Every state in the US would charge her with murder. What has changed between ten minutes before birth and ten minutes after birth?

We could say: the child cannot survive independently before birth. Guess what? The child still cannot survive independently. It would starve in a room full of food.

We could say: the child feels no pain before birth. Science has proven otherwise.

We could say: The child cannot breathe on its own before birth but can after. Nope. Some children start life on a respirator and the state recognizes their personhood.

We could say anything we want but the truth is there is NO difference.

We can work our way back ten minutes at a time for nine full months and we would find only one point where the key difference occurs.

Given routine care a sperm or an egg will remain a sperm or an egg. But a fertilized egg, given routine care, will develop eventually into an adult human being.

Since it is clear that we cannot find any line of demarcation after conception through adulthood, we are left with the inescapable conclusion that even the product of rape is a person and any action taken to destroy that life is murder.

As far as legalizing abortion to prevent "back-alley" coat hanger abortions. Ensuring that women receive safe health-care is a good thing. Killing their babies is obviously an evil thing.
The end never justifies the means.

The principle of "Double Effect" comes into play here. The principal of double effect states that it is morally acceptable to do something that has an evil result provided that four conditions are fulfilled:

1. The action contemplated be in itself either morally good or morally indifferent.
2. The bad result not be directly intended.
3. The good result not be a direct causal result of the bad result.
4. The good result be "proportionate to" the bad result.

The difference between the above situation and, say, the termination of an ectopic pregnancy is:

In the ectopic pregnancy:
1. The removal of an life-threatening obstruction from the fallopian tube is morally a good thing. PASS
2. Our purpose is not to kill the embryo; rather it is to remove the obstruction. PASS
3. The death of the embryo does not cause the obstruction to be removed; rather it is the result. PASS
4. There is virtually no hope of saving the embryo in any alternative; but the mother's life can be saved. Therefore, the good result is proportional. PASS

In the case of providing abortion services to prevent "coat-hangar" abortions.

1. An action whose sole purpose is the destruction of the fetus is morally evil. FAIL
2. The bad result is the intended result. FAIL
3. The abortion of the fetus causes the good result (ends justifying the means). FAIL
4. There is no proportionality: The mother and child would have both likely survived if the procedure was not performed. FAIL

It sounds like a nice way to treat women by providing safe health care -- or so Planned Parenthood would have us believe. On the contrary, it enables men and women to lose their souls. "And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." Matthew 10:28


Robert Stout
Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 12:24 am
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One thing I should add. We don't say, "Okay, morally unacceptable. Have a nice day." In cases where a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy by whatever means, it is the responsibility of the Church (that is, the body of believers; not your parish priest by himself) to support and care for the woman and her child. We can do that through our support (time, talent and treasure) of such ministries as Project Rachel, Birthright, and many others.


stoutr
Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 05:15 pm
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If I understand correctly, this is the Social Justice Forum where anyone can comment. You may have mistakenly put your post here rather than in the "Ask Deacon Lawrence" section where questions are sent directly to him for his answers.

Hopefully, he will see this and answer you as you would like.

 
 
Matthew Posted: Jan 23 2004, 12:26 PM 
 
I agree with Rich, abortion is morally wrong for the most fundamental human right is the right to life. However, those who argue with the logic that making abortion illegal via our legal system will lessen the practise from occuring in society are profoundly mistaken. As Christians we believe that man has fallen to sin and has turned away from God. Throughout the whole of human existence man has ruled man, kings have ruled slaves, races have ruled races, nations have ruled other nations etc. etc. When God sent his only son to redeem us for our sins, God's will and plan humankind was revealed. We must live an existence where God rules over us in justice and mercy, not an existence where man rules over man.

Unfortunately folks, the latter society still exists, and as long as this society exists there will continue to be abortion, murder, exploitation etc. etc. That's why we all must turn to God and live according to Christ's teaching, and all wait for the glory of his second coming- when he will make the world right again. It is against common sense and logic to argue that making abortion illegal will help stamp out the practise and will act in the common good. It will still occur, the law of Moses has only been broken continually for 3,000 years folks. Abortion will cease to be practised when the perfect godly society comes upon us.

I have argued a strongly valid case, with both reason and scripture and also, I my add, from the perspective of a great great-grandson of a woman who died whilst performing self-abortion with a knitting needle back in the days when abortion was illegal.
 
 
 
Robert Posted: Oct 1 2004, 05:42 PM 
 
I have to agree with the others that abortion is always a grave sin. It is one of the few sins that are mortal even if the persons involved do not know or fully understand the gravity.

As far as allowing it to remain legal you have to think of the word co-operation. When people recognize the depravity of a law that promotes or permits evil to take place then from that moment to not seek to end this evil is a form of cooperation in the evil itself.

All catholics must work to remove evil laws, regulations and behaviors from our societies, through peaceful means. This means that it is necessary to legally remove these types of laws and any and all politician who would promote them by supporting and working within the framework of the law to rid our nations of these acts that call out to God for revenge.

[judi]

What is the fundamental basis for any of our Laws? This argument pales quickly when we begin to consider how many other laws we could make the same argument for. In the end what is law and where does it come from. What is its purpose.  To safegaurd our life and rights. There is a moral basis for our law in the US it is  rooted in natural law. It is unatural for a mother to agree to have any one kill its totally dependendent and defenseless. It is immoral to for the strong to be legally sanctioned to destroy the defenseless.

[Andy]

I,m not a woman ?..but it,s interesting how many men ,have an input in people's lives?.
Abortion ?..well that,s a well debated subject ..it happens ..should we not be directing our  support to  those who need it ?

[Andy]

As a Footer ..I hope ..We all live in the real world what would you do ..if it was your daughter ?

[priestess82]

I read many of the posts concerning legalization of abortion. Many people are concerned that if abortion was once again illegal, women would die from back alley abortions. But the truth is women are dying now from "legal, safe" abortions in filthy clinics, from sepsis, from perforated organs, from neglect and abandonment. RU 486 has killed several women also procuring safe legal abortions.

Thanks to legal abortion, women and children have been reduced to mere property, much like in olden times. With the advent of Plan B over the counter, women and girls no longer can say no to unwanted sexual activity with the claim they might get pregnant. One little pill and the problem is gone.

Abortion is the deliberate killing of a human person, no matter how small or where located. Murder is always wrong and will continue to be, no matter what the law says. Every person came from two cells which united. Truth does not change, no matter how much we want it to. Abortion should be illegal with stiff consequences for doctors and medical personel perfoming the procedure. Women need to reclaim their power to say no to sex and stop handing out sexual favors. This is not old fashioned thinking. Men and boys have come to expect sex with no strings, no responsibility and no payment. We women have foolishly allowed them to. The changes in abortion and sexual irresponsibility will come from women first who no longer allow themselves to be used and discarded and women who reclaim the value of family and marriage. Only then will abortion be outlawed.

[Maria]

Let me just add that about four months ago, I was watching this show on the Trinity Broadcast Network. I can't exactly recall when but If I remember correctly and forgive me if I'm wrong, it was around a time abortion was once again in the news for a while. On the show, they were talking about partial birth abortion. I just couldn't believe my eyes. They described how they partially deliver a baby and then they use this tool, I don't know what it was called but they stab the baby in the back of the neck, while the head is still in the birth canal; with the rest of the baby delivered. They deliver the rest of the baby when they are certain it has passed on. That is so barbaric, these babies don't even get a chance and live a life that God has blessed them with. They are so inocent and no baby deserves that. I pray for the unborn and all the children around the world. Those suffering and not. So, I am totally against abortion regardless of the circumstances.....

[janef]

No abortion should not be legal it is murder.It also affects the life and soul of the person getting the abortion

[Maximilienne(FR)]

I read many of the posts concerning legalization of abortion. Many people are concerned that if abortion was once again illegal, women would die from back alley abortions. But the truth is women are dying now from "legal, safe" abortions in filthy clinics, from sepsis, from perforated organs, from neglect and abandonment. RU 486 has killed several women also procuring safe legal abortions.

Thanks to legal abortion, women and children have been reduced to mere property, much like in olden times. With the advent of Plan B over the counter, women and girls no longer can say no to unwanted sexual activity with the claim they might get pregnant. One little pill and the problem is gone.

Abortion is the deliberate killing of a human person, no matter how small or where located. Murder is always wrong and will continue to be, no matter what the law says. Every person came from two cells which united. Truth does not change, no matter how much we want it to. Abortion should be illegal with stiff consequences for doctors and medical personel perfoming the procedure. Women need to reclaim their power to say no to sex and stop handing out sexual favors. This is not old fashioned thinking. Men and boys have come to expect sex with no strings, no responsibility and no payment. We women have foolishly allowed them to. The changes in abortion and sexual irresponsibility will come from women first who no longer allow themselves to be used and discarded and women who reclaim the value of family and marriage. Only then will abortion be outlawed.

I agree with what you say. I think there should be a lot more teaching about what dignity and purity means for a woman. The mere fact that women are now willing to commit murder not to endanger their sex life is something that better education should erradicate. I am not in the US but abortion is legal in my country too, and since it became legal (about 15 years ago I think) everything came stumblig down, now we have to deal with 13, 14 years old kids taking pills and even going through abortion. Where is dignity in that? Why do we have to accept that? Only so that they can sell us more stuff to make us pretty and make us feel like the stupid sex-freak "Cosmo girl", ready to kill not to loose her waist line!?
I apologize if maybe I was too harsh, but I am involved in some stop the avortion policy programs at my parrish and I've been watching so many saddening testimonies...

[Amy]

I aggree that Birth Control and Abortion undermine the dignity of women & decrease how much value society places on children. I aggree that abortion should be illegal- ALL humans should be granted the same rights. However, I think Christians & government could do more to PREVENT abortion, by supporting women in these crisis pregnancies, promoting absistence, education on the dignity of life, rather than just battling abortion on the legal battlefield.

[Amy]

As a Footer ..I hope ..We all live in the real world what would you do ..if it was your daughter ?

This was an interesting question & wanted to reply. I think many people genuinely believe an abotion will "make the problem go away."  However most times abortion adds to the problem. Women suffer tremendous guilt as a result of abortion, many relationships end for couples who choose abortion; and in the case of rape or incest abortion is another trauma the woman has to endure, because abortion is a violent act & one cannot expect that a second violent act will ease the pain & suffering caused by the first. So, In response to your question... if it was my daughter, I would encourage her to carry the baby to term & consider adoption or raise the baby, & help & support her any way I can. Because in the "real world" abortion does not solve the problem- it just creates more, and is harmful to women!
 I pray that we Catholic Christians will be charitable & go to heroic measures to support women facing the difficult choice of abortion & be loving and non-judgemental to those who have made this painfull choice during a frightening time in their life. God bless!

[priestess82]

Footer, instead of it being my daughter, it was me. I knew better but was convinced we were in love and going to be married. Everyone in my group was doing the same thing but I was the only one who "got caught." I never considered abortion but was kicked out of my house and lived in a scary dive for about 4 months before I got my own place because I was abandoned by the man I thought loved me. I had to hit rock bottom but God in His wisdom put wonderful people in my life to help me. From this experience, I can relate to women and girls in a crisis pregnancy and help them since I walked this path. I kept my baby, married a great guy who wanted us both and went on to make 4 more babies with him. We have been married 20 years and my daughter knows the truth. I wasn't sure I was going to keep her because I wasn't sure how I was going to provide for us but I knew for sure I would never murder her. This was not her fault and she was innocent.

[Amy]

Thank you for that insight, Priestess. It's always good to hear from someone who's "been there."  ~Amy

[Dean MacKinnon-Thomson]

Abortion is murder. This is what I believe, as it is a life. It is provided by the will of God, and that makes abortion an act of placing yourself before the divine will of the Lord. As Archbishop Cardinal of St. Andrews & Edinburgh has said to the Scottish Parliament "who are you, to decide whether His judgment is fair?".

However can we make an exception for rape for example? I think not, for any unwanted child can be adopted, or given to a relative to be brought up. There is no need for murder, which is and always will be a cardinal sin.

Smile Jesus Loves You,

Dean

[End2Abortion]

Dear e-Catholic 2000 Members,

My letter to Ted Kennedy responds to this and many inquiries as to why abortion should be illegal.
Letter to Ted Kennedy: http://www.geocities.com/duevoltetre/29March07KennedyLetter.htm

I am happy to be one of you, and I hope I bring you good news.

As Catholics, mostly, I presume that you're interested in ending abortion and that the victory of Obama might have been somewhat harrowing, given his inclination to let aborted yet still living babies die on the table to respect the mother's choice.  Also given that he will probably reverse all the efforts effected by pro-lifers in the last 36 years.  Whereas McCain may not have ended abortion, but at least he would have let the pro-life movement alone to figure out what to do next.  I -- and I know many other pro-lifers -- do not think, and for good reason, that Obama is into live and let live.  But one can never tell.

In any event, there is STILL a way out, while Bush is still in office and in fact pulling some fast ones before he leaves that I hear say are hard to un-do.  Strike when the iron is hot.

I have the text of my press release below that gives a very brief description of the instrument and some links for more information, plus you can e-mail and ask questions.  There is a complaint that if handled for justice can eradicate abortion.  Bush won't be able to handle it to completion anymore, but he can open that can of worms before he leaves and Obama will then have to deal with it. 

It's really an outrage that I have to petition Bush to get it fast-tracked through Justice because it really should have been done all along.  But, I will try that too, and in fact I will be getting that to the White House this week, and possibly even forwarding additional signatures as they come in.  One (my own) should be sufficient, but no amount of signatures is too many.

Thank you for listening, and I do hope that you find this information useful.

In Jesus Mary and Joseph,

Anna Maria Agolli

Press release text follows

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LAST CHANCE TO EFFECTIVELY ERADICATE ABORTION BY PETITION TO BUSH

November 18, 2008, Washington , DC
 
Anna Maria Agolli has a petition that will go to George Bush early December before he leaves office.  It requests the fast-tracking through Justice Department of a federal criminal complaint that can serve to eradicate abortion, and to do the possible to request that it be put on the U.S. Supreme Court docket. The petition is available to be read and signed on the website, with other information including a summary and some key documents being posted ongoing. 

Unlike other instruments that are pro-life per se, obtaining justice in this complaint would not automatically be refused by the U.S. Supreme Court because the complaint requires on-the-record investigation/prosecution of specific crimes that may also be sufficiently representative for the Justice Department to enact laws about.  This complaint has been side-stepped for just handling, and so its outcome should interest the entire country, pro-life, pro-choice, Republican and Democrat.   

If George Bush can only initiate this action, Barack Obama may well insure its conclusion in justice notwithstanding its profound pro-life potential because this complaint truly addresses enforcement of the law with disinterest, which protects us all.  The crimes do not consist only of such as would lynchpin abortion issues and expose the progressive agenda, i.e., violent violations of first amendment rights, arbitrary and capricious abuse of discretion by law enforcement, obstruction of justice, etc.  The crimes consist also of horror stories of insurance company ill-use of policyholders, the disabled.  The handling of this complaint shows how unprotected the most defenseless of us are when the law is not enforced with disinterest.  No U.S. President can publicly ignore that.

No pro-life instrument has succeeded in ending abortion even with pro-life Presidents because the forums require enforced disinterest and do not have it.  If specific instances of numerous corrupt acts with a self-serving collective goal to protect the subjects of the complaint are addressed for justice so as to cause a reversal of those corrupt acts, this sets precedent for prosecution and reversal of other corrupt actions, thus laying the groundwork to end abortion, which became legal corruptly. 

Anna Maria Agolli
Feast of the Holy Innocents*The End of Herod
anna_agolli@yahoo.com 

The most dynamic pro-life advocate I know, with stories upon stories of saved children that show a methodology that is realistic and really works. It is not surprising that Anna’s experiences and work also gained the necessary instrument to eradicate abortion and all that brought us abortion as the macabre solution to life.

Patrizia Krischik

More information can be obtained as follows:

http://www.geocities.com/anna_agolli/The_End_of_Herod.html

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4757227017735891623&postID=3453331145375073257

Petition text:    http://www.geocities.com/duevoltetre/PetitionText.htm

To Sign Petition:  http://www.geocities.com/duevoltetre/E-mailCode.html

See Key Documents:

http://www.geocities.com/makestraightthepath/HomePage.html?1219851925718

Letter to Ted Kennedy: http://www.geocities.com/duevoltetre/29March07KennedyLetter.htm

Homepage:  http://www.geocities.com/duevoltetre/index.html?1073255540406