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[ec2kadm]

barrister Posted: Aug 5 2003, 09:59 PM 
 
It is rock solid church doctrine -- since Augustine -- a war may be a just endeavor under certain circumstances. The key is to focus on the proportionality of the "affirmative use of violence" to rectify the wrong. To deny this doctrine is to deny church doctrine of many centuries.

Why then can violence, on a mass scale be moral and just, but on a local or individual scale not be?

The use of violence is not the focal point. It is the reason for and the exetnt of the use of violence.

As the Holy Father has stated, proportional use of the death penalty in approrpiate cases is justified. The isolated case then of remving true evil from the world by governmental means when done in the context of complete due process, and when the punishment is proportional to the evil done, is always justified.

Otherwise man can never use violence to fight for that which is right. In our lifetime Hitler rules the world in such an event. God gave us the planet to rule through His grace. Not to lose it to unchecked evil.

Violence is never the first answer, but sometimes it is an answer. St. Augustine's "just war" theory expressly provides for such.

[Paul]

The 'Just War Theory' as a philiosophy appears to provide a solution.  However, can you name me one war in which the ideals of the 'just war theory' were implemented infalibly?  Let me answer this for you; the answer is no. 

Pope Benedict XV - 'The Gospel has not one law of charity for individuals and another for states and nations, for these are but collections of individuals.'

How can you love your neighbour by killing him?  How can you turn the other cheek?  How can killing uphold the message of the Gospel?

[cajunrick]

The 'Just War Theory' as a philiosophy appears to provide a solution.  However, can you name me one war in which the ideals of the 'just war theory' were implemented infalibly?  Let me answer this for you; the answer is no. 

Nations do not have the charism of infallibility, so you are correct that no war was ever infallibly just.  However, I would argue that the response to Nazi, Facist and Imperial agression in World War II came mighty close.  That does not mean that every action taken by the Allies in that war was necessarily just, but I do believe the overall need for response qualifies for a "Just War."

How can you love your neighbour by killing him?  How can you turn the other cheek?  How can killing uphold the message of the Gospel?

The very concept of Just War recognizes that sometimes governments are required to intervene to save those who are being unjustly killed.  The genocide of the Jews during World War II, and the genocides in Africa, are prime examples of situations in which governments need to intervene to protect the innocent, just as you or I would intervene to protect our families from attack. 

Mind you, governments do not a spotless record.  Many wars have been fought unjustly, and many necessary actions have not been taken simply because it was not "convenient" or the selfish interests of the more powerful nations have not indicated that intervention was a priority, so we have "looked the other way" too many times.  That's not the same thing as turning the other cheek; we can only do that when we ourselves have been slapped.  But Jesus never said we should not defend ourselves from repeated attacks, or defend the less fortunate when they need our assistance. 

Protecting the helpless is indeed part of the Gospel of Charity.

[jon316white]

When I was young and away from the Church I was a firm believer of an "eye for an eye". I would have supported public hangings. Now that I am firmly into middle age and closer to our God I have softened considerably. I believe a lifetime in a cell is the worst punishment a person can receive. I no longer support the death penality. However, a criminal has created the circumstances that has brought him to death row. He must accept the fact that his actions brought him to death row. God allows all the senarios concerning the death penality to exist all according to his will. Maybe he is waiting for mankind to change it. The Bible says we must honor our goverment and authorities. So until our laws change we must accept the fact that execution is part of our society and understand why it is with us. I support our goverment even though it has the death penalty. Someday I hope it does not.

[John E. (TX)]

CCC 2309: The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force requrie rigorous consideration.  The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to regorous conditions of moral legitimacy.  At one and the same time:
- The damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain
- All other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective
- There must be serious prospects of success
- The use of arms must not produce evils and disorder graver than the evil to be eliminated.  The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition
-- These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine
-- The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

The only question is who decides all these points are valid and therefore the conflict in question is a "just war."  It appears that a "nation or commuity of nations" that does not comply with the norm of "peace" or undue aggression of another nation or community of nations then a war, if all the points of a just war doctrine are excerised, than a war may be necesary to proctect the common good of those nations or community of nations that are threatened by the aggresive nation or community of nations.