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[ec2kadm]

In the past couple weeks, there has been tons of discussion regarding Catholic Charismatics.

If anyone is interested, we can continue the discussion here. We have a few staff members who are Charismatic and I'm sure can answer questions and make things more clear.


Let's finish it!!

Christina

[ec2kadm]

Great topic! I admit I don't know any Catholic charismatics personally. I look forward to hearing more about it...........

dmarie

[ec2kadm]

Cool, dmarie... do you have any questions to start this off with?

Christina

[ec2kadm]

well, do Catholic Charismatics have the same type of Mass that the rest of us do? Do they speak in tongues? What are some of the major differences?

dmarie

[ec2kadm]

I have a few questions too. What is the difference between praying in tongues and speaking in tongues? Is speaking in tongues sanctioned by the Church? Is there a way we can tell if someone is faking speaking in tongues?

Rich

[ec2kadm]

Yes, the first thing that pops into my mind when someone says charismatic catholic is the idea of speaking in tongues. I could very well be mistaken in my thinking......

I don't know the differences between praying and speaking in tongues. I will research it.


dmarie

[ec2kadm]

OK, from what I can gather, Charismatic Catholics are usually a group of Catholics that meet for prayer and worship --- and generally use a more vocal approach (Praise the Lord! Alleluia!!) and a more expressive approach (raising their hands up in the air) --- in contrast to the more conservative demeanor that is generally seen at Mass. It is my understanding that they focus on the release of power of the Holy Spirit upon them as they pray and sing.

They have both prayer meetings and what is called a Charismatic Mass. It is my understanding that they combine the vocal and expressive approach of their prayer meetings with the more conservative approaches of a traditional Mass to create the Charismatic Mass.

I have no idea if this is sanctioned by the Church.

I have been to several Pentacostal, Church of God, and Baptist "Revival" services, and the Charismatic Catholic approach reminds me of those services, only with a Catholic twist.

Here is an interesting link: http://ccc.garg.com/modules.php?op=modload...l&parent_id=0#8

dmarie

[ec2kadm]

I was involved with a Charismatic prayer group in the eighties We met for prayer and praise every week and attended Life in the Spirit seminars for instruction. We sought the gifts of the Spirit.
Some of the gifts are for the individual and others are for the church or community. I found some interesting sites online which explain these gifts in great detail.
One of the gifts is the gift of tongues but certainly not the most important of the gifts. My first experience was of a whole 250 person prayer group singing in tongues down in Andover MA. Getting 250 to sing something they knew would have been challenging enough But 250 people singing harmony and descants, having no idea what part they played and it all coming together as a glorious sound convinced me that something was going on here that I did not understand yet. What has been your experiences?

Sylvia

[ec2kadm]

I've never been to a Charismatic Mass, before... perhaps Deacon Lawrence or Middy can enlighten us there.

The difference between "speaking" and "praying" in tongues...

Speaking in tongues is for the edification of the body and should have someone there for interpretation.

If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God.
- 1 Corinthians 14:27-28

Praying in tongues is your personal prayer language between you and God... or praying quietly over someone. It's used to praise and glorify God. I use it for instance, when I've run out of my own words and want to keep going.

I found some Q&A that may be useful.

Facts concerning the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues.

-Do all Christian believers speak in tongues? No, I Corinthians 12:30. It may not be a requirement but it certainly is a privilege.

-Should we desire to speak with tongues? Yes, I Corinthians 14:1.

-Does the bible make a distinction between baptism in water and 'the baptism of the Holy Spirit'? Yes, Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:26. John the Baptist says, "I indeed baptize you with water Unto repentance, but he (Jesus) shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost..."

-Is the promise of the baptism of the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues for everyone? Yes, Acts 2:33-39, Joel 2:28, Luke 24:49.

-Is the baptism of the Holy Ghost accompanied by power for living and witnessing? Yes, Acts 1:4-14.

-Does speaking in tongues in church require wisdom for proper use and was it misused in Pauls day? Yes, see the entire I4th chapter off Corinthians.

-Should we throw the baby out with the bath water? No, I Corinthians 14:39 says "Forbid not to speak with tongues."

-Did Jesus speak with tongues? Yes, John 11:33 says Jesus "groaned in the spirit" which was an unintelligible utterance. In Mark 15:34 Jesus spoke to God in a language unknown to those who heard when he said, "Eloi, EIoi, lama sabachthani". They thought he was calling for Elias (Elijah) but the gospel writer Mark interpreted it for us as "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" See also Mark 5:41, Hebrews 5:7 says that before Jesus went to the cross he "offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears." (Sometimes desperate situations require desperate prayer)

-Did anyone speak with tongues in the Old Testament? Possibly. Isaiah 38:14, When Hezekiah travailed before God for his life he says, "Like a crane or a swallow so did I chatter.' I did mourn as a dove." See a/so Isaiah 28:1! where he speaks of "Stammering lips and another tongue".

Remember that this is a gift of the Holy Spirit: thus there is nothing we can do to learn it or practice it. It is a gift, period.

--------------------
"Cast yourself into the arms of God and be very sure that
if He wants anything of you, He will fit you for the work and give you the strength. St. Philip Neri."

Christina

[ec2kadm]

I think what the Catechism says on this subject is interesting.

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit." 53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church. 54

799 Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.

800 Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms. 253

801 It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church's shepherds. "Their office [is] not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good," 254 so that all the diverse and complementary charisms work together "for the common good." 255

I've never been to a Charismatic Mass or Life in the Spirit Seminar so I'm not too familiar with these rituals. However, I have been involved with some Charismatic liturgies and found them to be quite moving. I'm a bit curious as to why the gift of tongues seems to be the major topic of discussion when the Charisms are discussed. Granting that praying and speaking in tongues is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and a beautiful gift indeed, there are other gifts that the Spirit gives us that, to me, need to be devoloped and discussed also. Wisdom, understanding etc. As I said, I have not been involved in any real way with the Charismatic aspect of the church. Are these other gifts also emphasized by those that are deeply involved and give equal status? I believe I could easily love this aspect of the church as far as a way to praise and worship God goes if I understood all of this better.

Deacon Anthony

[ec2kadm]

Thank you Deacon Anthony!!!

dmarie

[ec2kadm]

This is an excellant explanation of the Charismatic Renewal. You will get much information as well as it being made quite clear as to what Charismatics do... I will post at another time my personal experience with the renewal and my personal involvement since October 1976.... 

Click on ur http://www.pur.com.br/english/renewal.html


Middy

[ec2kadm]

Thanks Middy! Before I continue on here I want to be very clear that I am much more interested in becoming a part of Charismatic Renewal than having any ideas of discrediting it. The artical Middy posted has helped tremendously but it has left me somewhat more baffled as to why people place so much emphasis on the one gift of tongues. It's obvious, from this article, that the folks promoting CCR do not emphasize one gift over the other. So any ideas? Is it people who ARE trying to discredit the movement that make a big deal out of speaking in tongues? I've heard the Life in the Spirit seminars, in some cases, have made people feel spiritually inferior if they don't speak in tongues. Having never been to one I'm certainly not qualified to speak to that. Can someone comment on that? I am just trying to clear up my misconceptions.

Deacon Anthony

[ec2kadm]

I have the same questions Deacon.........

dmarie

[ec2kadm]

Deacon,

I'm glad that you found the article interesting. I can give my personal opinion regarding tongues. As I previously stated, I have been involved with the renewal since 1976. As long as I can remember much emphasis has been put on receiving the gift of tongues, not so much by the people who lay hands on someone for the Baptism in the Holy Spirit but, rather by those who are being prayed for. When and how the emphasis on tongues began I believe will remain a mystery. I personally feel that some people need tangible signs to believe that something significant happened to them in any given experience. For some who have been prayed with, the experience was dramatic, the presence of God was evident to them in a way they never experienced before and some of these people received the gift to pray in tongues immediately. At the time of "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" I personally witnessed some who have have cried others laughed and others remained still and quiet just relishing the experience. Most who have had the experience of recommitting their lives to Christ, (Baptism of the Holy Spirit) do not go on to be teachers of the word, or speakers who go around the world as prophets etc. etc) so possibly for them speaking in tongues may be an assurance that something great happened to them... I know people who have been baptized in the spirit many, many years ago who still do not pray in tongues (although they are few and far between.) It is not essential to growing closer to God.. Personally having the gift has enhanced my prayer life greatly. There have been times in my life when I have been emotionally or spiritually in pain and just couldn't pray, other then to say to God "Help" so I prayed in tongues (when 9-11 happened I could do nothing but pray in tongues, I was flying precisely when the planes hit the buildings and was layed over in Pa for 4 days, without my family) A few more examples is when I hear a fire siren, or an ambulance passing by, I again pray in tongues for the people whose home may be on fire or who may be injured. I don't know what is happening in these situations and cannot pray specfically. But God knows what's happening and gives me the words for them in my personal prayer language. I almost never need a reason to pray in tongues I just do it and often. I can go on and on, but won't  . I just do not think that anyone can answer the question as to the emphasis on tongues . It just seems to be something that is . If anyone has a more concise : answer please feel free share  ......

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May the Lord bless you and your family abundantly

Middy